Curse

Swingline · Aug 17, 2011, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

so....encourage competitive plays in pve, + adding more pvp titles + reducing grinding in lower form of pvp to encourage player to move on to higher form pvp ... can be done easily by anet to make the higher form of pvp more populate perhaps?

Guild Wars use to be just this. Back in Prophecies days the arenas were spread out as you progressed in pve and they eventually lead you to tombs(HA). Unfortunately Anet moved them all to their own continent creating a microcosm for PvP and thats what separated pvp from pve.

superraptors · Aug 17, 2011, 11:43 AM // 11:43

beginners need to take initiative and can't expect a more experienced player to spoon feed you 24/7

floor · Aug 17, 2011, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

^ Sure there is, there's byob of course and I've also played stupid builds like Shovespike with 7 Monk spikers just for the sake of it. No chance of beating any semi-decent guild but we didn't care.

terrible example mr shinde cos you and me both know that you wouldnt ever play "fun" builds all the time. Playing them every now and then for the sole purpose of messing about, is not the same as playing joke builds every day. Although saying that, i dont mean to imply that regular meta builds are not fun, some are more fun than others, but ultimately if you didnt enjoy playing them or guild wars in general, you wouldnt log on.

Same reasoning applies to byob, sure its fun, everyone loves to play it. The only problem with using byob as an argument, is that its still competitive, yeah its byob but u still try hard to win, losing repeatedly isnt fun even when ur messing about. Not to mention that there probably isnt a guild that manages to run real "byob" full time. Kaons guild will probably be used as the obvious counter to this, but quite honestly they are mostly very good players, playing effective bars. Im quite sure kaon wouldnt let you run around with a mending warrior with heal breeze that is clearly useless. Albeit very similar to byob, they will always play with some melee chars, some snares, and some caster damage, its more comparable to a functional 1 monk split build, than any form of "real byob" where you can just run whatever you want, regardless of usefullness.

tl;dr, all gvg (and HA) is serious, nobody plays just for the sake of playing, everyone wants to win regardless of what build you play. Simply by the nature of PvP, there can be no such thing as casual play. You play hard, or not at all.

Jeydra · Aug 17, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

@floor - if you exclude the occasional messing-around game then yeah I agree. Although the times when I've played utterly stupid builds have been funny (8 Wammos with Endure + Defy Pain and Heal Area, we were trying to bulldoze the Lord rofl). That said, I don't think anyone invites new players to play these kind of builds, because they're fun only if you're with close friends. And of course playing these kind of builds don't exactly make you get better at GvG.

I think casual PvP does exist, in RA / JQ / FA. If you turn off team chat and all chat and ignore everyone, you can play quite reasonably. That doesn't apply to the higher-end PvP though because you need to form teams and coordinate builds there. Even TA was a competitive arena where players played to win.

A few years ago you could make randomway teams in HA, especially during double Fame weekend. I've since stopped playing HA, but does that no longer work?

Missing HB · Aug 17, 2011, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

tl;dr, all gvg (and HA) is serious, nobody plays just for the sake of playing, everyone wants to win regardless of what build you play. Simply by the nature of PvP, there can be no such thing as casual play. You play hard, or not at all.

That's what is pretty sad about it... Before you could hold halls with a full party of henchs, i also remember some dudes running palm sins with roj monks in GvG( i think it was [GENI]) and they still managed to get correct results...( besides on that point, it's pretty logic from them to be able to run full heroes parties on 2006 but not being able to do it 5 years later once everyone left....)

Today, well ,you still can use fun builds or byob , but you keep getting rolled by everyone running the same meta, which is triple dervish or invoke eles( which i can't consider to be builds requiring to play hard....)...
That's due to the 2 problems i keep saying but obviously, noone is reading : inactivity and lack of knowing how to balance skills...

on a side note : maybe there should be some GvG arena to make people be able to try it when they want to... I'm pretty sure a few people would give it more time if they were able to just pug it.... Let's say HA on GvG maps... then people could get more familiar with those, find their best map to then adapt on their guild hall , etc....
Besides, on the long term, this could eventually lead to more normal GvG fights

tealspikes · Aug 17, 2011, 05:55 PM // 17:55

There are very few casual teams for new players to play against, unless you count all the smurfs. To win even occasionally at these formats, new players have to improve themselves much closer to the level of the more serious players. This requires a much more serious attitude to train and practice to the point where they are no longer just 'casual'. This is incompatible with many of the new players' original goal when entering the format - to play mostly for fun.

floor · Aug 18, 2011, 08:29 AM // 08:29

@ Missing HB

My comments on playing "hard", mostly refer to the fact that you must have the 'play to win' mentality. I wasnt really referring to skills and balance as thats a different topic.

Oh and heros sucked, losing to heroway in HA was an embarassment and as far back as i can remember, heroway never held halls on a regular basis. Yes it happened, but it was certainly a rarity. Quite simply heros couldnt pick up items, and generally have AI that is far far worse than the intelligence of an even half decent player. The only 2 exceptions to this were olias' insane ability to maintain tainted flesh on ur entire party, and gwens 0.00001s interupts. tease way anyone? lol

Also tealspikes above post sums it up very nicely. There is simply no such thing as casual PvP. You win, or you go home.

drkn · Aug 18, 2011, 01:44 PM // 13:44

I think that "casual" most often means "playing about 2h daily", not "playing just for fun, with lulz builds, and i don't care if i lose (thus wasting time)".
You can be effective playing RA 1-2h daily. HA and GvG - not. Either dedicate lots of time, and ignore the pro elitists that call you noob and laugh at you, or don't even bother.
Not worth it.

Jeydra · Aug 18, 2011, 02:44 PM // 14:44

You can be effective playing GvG 2 hours a day ...

drkn · Aug 18, 2011, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Yeah, if you've played earlier, aka are already experienced, or have friends that will teach you how to get hang on this format, pointing out with index finger at the beginning.

Fate Crusher · Aug 18, 2011, 05:00 PM // 17:00

To say "I play PvP for fun, I don't care if I keep losing, I just want to play this format" is not an argument. It's simply whining at the fact that certain players didn't/couldn't jump on the bandwagon when they had a chance.

PvP is pure and simple, you play to win. Any means necessary. Lower end PvP (RA/JQ/FA/AB) are all randomised in order to dumb down the means available. You are forced to play with unknowns. Organised competitive play will always be.... Competitive.

Noob yellow team in halls for the first time ganks blue without understanding why and allows red to win: you are going to get flamed. It's simply the nature of competitiveness, Blue team lost a potentially even match because another team was "playing for fun".

I don't think I explained that well. tldr: play hard or go home, simples.

If anyone's played team sports, they would understand. RWC 2011 starts in September. If you watched a minnow squad beat one of the top tier teams, the top tier team will feel like they've been robbed. Why? They've put more effort into their training, they have a proven track record of winning, they only lost because of a single knock on; for example. It's the same in Guild Wars.

PS. Heroway was so you could farm the first few maps. Tease heros were rediculous and made 1v1 maps challenging. Faking was possible, but you could keep Gwen pinged on the prot and that's just wroooong :P

Missing HB · Aug 18, 2011, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

Oh and heros sucked, losing to heroway in HA was an embarassment and as far back as i can remember, heroway never held halls on a regular basis. Yes it happened, but it was certainly a rarity. Quite simply heros couldnt pick up items, and generally have AI that is far far worse than the intelligence of an even half decent player. The only 2 exceptions to this were olias' insane ability to maintain tainted flesh on ur entire party, and gwens 0.00001s interupts. tease way anyone? lol

Then were heroes teams really a matter considering you can't win relics, it never won halls? Besides , about rupting skills , i can remind you that bots happened and still exist today...

I'm pretty sure many players on certain playzones would be happy to at least be able to just play an TRY a format when they want to... This could be the " casual play " people need in order to become better and get into " competitive play " ...

About Halls only, the format is just a pure joke today... Usually, the same team holds as long as it is 1v1 and loses on the first 3 teams because they get ganked 90% of the time... Having more teams there would certainly do good for the format ( and real teams would see no problem i guess considering they would simply " farm " heroes teams )

The way the game is, you just don't have enough competition easy to access.. In PvE even , there should be a way so people want to be better than others... The same should exist in low PvP formats , but it's more likely " i lost, bah np i just go in again " ... quite sad isn't it ...

X Ninja Sasuke X · Aug 18, 2011, 06:21 PM // 18:21

about Elitism:

elitism exists everywhere in online gaming, especially mmo's, and 1st person shooters, and RTS's. For some reason when its the internet instead of face to face people become ruder, meaner, etc than they probably would in r/l. in r/l you play a game of bball or shoot a game of pool, you say good game afterwards win or lose usually, you try to be a good sport, in online gaming you say pwned u n00b, pve that way --->, or the loser rants about you not having a life, or lucky, or blames teammates etc.

the problem is not pvp, the problem is people. people in mmo's tend to be rude, granted not everyone, but a good majority. most people wouldn't hesitate to scam, or rip off, or put down others if they think they can get away with it.

about PvP:

Granted there is some form of elitism in pvp. But honestly there is elitism everywhere in guild wars and other mmo's and online games too. Guild Wars practically encourages it with titles, ranks, emotes, fancy armor, rare weapons, etc

Part of the problem isn't always I can't get into groups b/c of no-rank...part of the problem is sometimes pve'ers are used to face-rolling pve and are to stubborn to learn what they need to do for pvp. For example you will commonly hear/see "i don't want to buy extra weapon sets, what i have is fine", no 40/40 set, no high energy set, no defensive set, no zeolous, vampiric weapon etc, incorrect armor/runes. trying to explain to a sin or dervish they need a shield to switch to isn't understood by them, no matter how much you tell them they don't listen, thus they don't get picked for groups.

Now let's be honest, there is high end pvp, and casual pvp, just like there is high end pve, and casual pve. For high end pvp you have gvg's, ha, codex, etc, for low end you have ab, fa, jq, and ra (though the elitism in ra is silly) So its not like a pve'er can't pvp, they just can't do high end pvp in pugs. A lot of the op and people have commented on is directed to pugs. Well guess what, why would you even want to do high end pvp in a pug group anyways, get into a pvp guild and hold hall of heroes for hours. It's much more rewarding and enjoyable, by trying to pug everything you're only hurting yourself.

About PvE:

Now let's be honest about pve too. There is plenty of elitism in pve too! I'm currently 28 max titles, 50/50 hall of monuments, r6 ha, r3 glad, r3 zaishen, r12 kurz, r2 commander, r4 luxon, etc. So I do a lot of pve and a fair amount of dabbing into pvp too when I get bored. Guess what, after quitting gw for 2 years while i played other games and was busy with school, work, life, gf, etc... i couldn't get into some pve groups too! Let's look at an example:

UWSC... when I came back I wanted to farm, get some money to max my remaining titles, guess what... I couldn't join pug groups either. wow they are such elitist jerks and mean (sarcasm). They require ranks, they require different weapon sets, they require exp, they require summoning stones! lol. As well they should! They aren't being mean, there is no problem, its a high end area, a pug of strangers mind you, they don't want to fail, or teach, or go slow. Save that for friends/guildies. The same goes for Fowsc, Soosc, almost any other sc, including doasc trenchway, or even slow moving but effective doa frostway. Are they elistist jerks b/c they want rank, the right build, pcons, cons, rez scrolls, etc, ? absolutely not.

My point is and I hope I have illustrated it well, mmo's shouldn't be about pleasing the masses, about making it to easy, if its to easy then no one really enjoys it. Whats the point of rare skins or max titles if everyone has it...none really. Part of the fun is the challenge! Pvp and pve have both high end and casual areas, for high end and casual players. If you are a high end pve'er but a pvp newbie, its ok, just research, learn builds, get weapons, make friends, join a guild etc. Just like you would for high end pve content! You wouldn't take a pve noob in your sc'ers, so don't be a hypocrite and QQ b/c you can't get into a pug. Pugs fail, don't pug anyways, be glad they won't take you. Go find a guild.

I hope you all enjoyed this post, i tried to be fair and honest to both sides. I know learning something new is frustrating at first, but given time and dedication everything will work out on its own. Hope you enjoy your pvp exp in gw.

ps: random idea to anet to help pve noobs learn pvp better... get rid of instant map travels and instanced towns, make it more about the world, and enable world pvp like WoW. honestly a lot of people would hate this, but it would help solve your pve'ers suck at pvp problem, maybe if they got ganked all day they might learn and play better...lol just saying

drkn · Aug 18, 2011, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

I hope you all enjoyed this post

I did. Seriously.
But i want to point out one main difference, since you've already invoked the elitism in PvE.

Being a random, unexperienced rookie, you can't join an UWSC pug, and the same is true for most SCs. Sure, it's totally understandable, and you pointed the similarities to pugging HA quite well.
But then...
You can at least roll UW with heroes and learn the whole topography. See the quests for yourself. You can go into NM UW alone and try to learn one of the roles (you can take heroes to clear the chamber for you easily). Then practice, by yourself, in HM. Heck, you can buy stones, if you're so desperate to get into groups and start actually playing rather than shouting in Temple for ages. Then you apply to SC guild, show them you have some roles mastered, and the train starts rolling.
And, first of all, you can roll pretty much anything else in PvE with a pug, especially with the rise of Embark Beach. If a mission or vanquish is listed as the day's Zaishen Challenge, it's quite easily puggable; some unoccupied spots, if its pugged late at night, can be filled with heroes.

The PvP side is different. You either join a randomised, casual, low-end PvP, or can't get into high-end, structured PvP because of 'no stones' to show. And, worst of all, RA (and, more so, JQ) is completely different than HA or GvG, maps included.
There's no way to learn, get better at or actually experience structured PvP without getting invited into structure (or, within the first two years of GW, creating it), contrary to PvE. It's a failure of design, but it's then made even more ridiculous by people.

AB is a kind of middle-ground - casual and easy-to-go format with a puggable party structure. But then, try to compare AB with HA...
Yeah, not worth it.

lursey · Aug 18, 2011, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Ninja Sasuke X

about Elitism:
...

you have to pug first to make friends...then to join the high end...even in HA/GVG/CA

not like you can just directly go to and make rank 12 friends without any playing....and facerolling with you in high end arenas.

I think maybe there should be both a random and a organised format of all arenas..

so that noobs, and elite.. don't mix together that much...

like random HA, and normal HA.. etc.

then noob can learn in the random format, and when they are fed up.. and want to be in the organised arena.. they can still do that..

just like you can have organised, and pug dota.. same format, but one is lower and one is higher end.

Lanier · Aug 18, 2011, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

I think that "casual" most often means "playing about 2h daily", not "playing just for fun, with lulz builds, and i don't care if i lose (thus wasting time)".
You can be effective playing RA 1-2h daily. HA and GvG - not. Either dedicate lots of time, and ignore the pro elitists that call you noob and laugh at you, or don't even bother.
Not worth it.

2 hours a day is pretty hardcore... thats like 1/12 of your life (both waking and sleeping hours) right there. I consider myself a casual player and I probably log on to play GW 3 or 4 times a week for maybe a hour at a time (longer if I'm doing something like a HM dungeon or urgoz/deep/FoW obviously).

Of course, I am one of those players who don't care if I win or lose because just playing is fun to me. Besides the time constraints that I mentioned earlier in this thread, that is the other reason why I stay out of organized PvP.

Swingline · Aug 18, 2011, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Ninja Sasuke X

For some reason when its the internet instead of face to face people become ruder, meaner, etc than they probably would in r/l.

That's because there is no fear of getting their nose broken on their side of the monitor... unless the person on the other end is chuck norris :P

drkn · Aug 18, 2011, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

like random HA, and normal HA.. etc.

then noob can learn in the random format, and when they are fed up.. and want to be in the organised arena.. they can still do that..

Sounds cool and seems much easier to implement than breaking HA into 0-4 and 5+ ranks. But its fatal flaw is that it still is unorganised - the groups may end up with no monks, or seven warriors, or three bots.

lursey · Aug 18, 2011, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Sounds cool and seems much easier to implement than breaking HA into 0-4 and 5+ ranks. But its fatal flaw is that it still is unorganised - the groups may end up with no monks, or seven warriors, or three bots.

it will be like the up version of ra.. when TA was there

it doesn't matter with no monks, 7 warriors or not..

cause everyone is on the same ground...but the difference is they can learn the map and some kind of 8 players maneuver

just like high end dota.. they group up and ts, and using ward/smoke balls, 5 ganking on 1...which you can hardly find them in pug dota..

Swingline · Aug 18, 2011, 07:41 PM // 19:41

IMHO HA should have been a random format. That way you have RA and TA which are 4 man random/organized, then HA and GvG would be 8 man random/organized. HA would groom people for 8v8 competitive play and move them on to GvG.